Kathleen Hale isn’t hiding from the controversy that inspired the title of her new essay collection, Kathleen Hale Is a Crazy Stalker. When she published her essay “Catfish” in The Guardian in 2014—about stalking a Goodreads reviewer who gave her book a one-star review and exposing the reviewer as someone using a false identity online—it inspired a wave of online criticism that led Hale to quit the internet for good. Now, with the release of her first book since those events, we asked her some questions about mental health, the “toxic hellscape” of the internet and how to keep writing when your every word is being scrutinized.

I noticed that the version of “Catfish” that appears in this book has a different ending than the version that originally appeared in The Guardian. This ending is more vulnerable; it gives more details about your stay in the psychiatric hospital following the essay’s blowback and delves into the ramifications for your mental health. Do you hope the new ending will give people a fuller view of the story? How do you hope they will respond?
The new ending is the linchpin to my essay’s original thesis, which is that the internet and in particular social media breed psychosis. I might have been an extreme case. But I feel like my case is on a continuum with what non-mentally ill people experience.

Four years removed from the essay’s original publication, how do you feel about it now? Has that changed at all over the years? 
It’s more obvious now than it was in 2014 that the internet is a toxic hellscape. Since then we have literally elected an internet troll as our president, which says a lot about the power trolls wield on Twitter, and social media has ruined lots of lives. People born in the 2000s seem to have a healthy distrust of things like Facebook. I realize looking back at myself how unsophisticated and naive I was. I got sucked into the internet, and it made me go crazy.

Has this experience—and the critique that is resurfacing now, with this book’s publication—affected how you interact with social media and the internet as a whole?
Very much so. I’m no longer on social media. I don’t write for free. And I don’t read what other people write about me, which has made me saner and a lot more productive.

Has this experience affected your view of “cancel culture”? How so?
I was at a party the other day and someone asked, “Has anyone read XYZ?”—some article online that was apparently controversial. And the first thing people asked was, “No, what are people saying about it?” I find that fascinating: that the first question is not about the work itself but about its reception. That is a very post-Zuckerberg phenomenon.

Though “Catfish” is already generating a lot of attention, it’s not the only essay in which you're vulnerable. What motivates you to continue to reveal yourself in this way?
During the recession in the early 2000s, women’s personal essays were referred to as “confessional essays” and were some of the only things I could get paid to write. During that time I published a ton of essays that really embarrass me now, because they’re revealing to no end. But under more ideal circumstances, I try very hard to differentiate between “secrets” and “story,” and to only pick those “confessions” that drive the story forward.

My hope is that the six essays in this collection productively harness revelatory details. They have been revised since their original publications to knit together a story of insanity in my 20s, which is only a phase if you survive it, and my desire to seek out the external danger that mirrored my internal experience.

But the collection is also a swan song to my 20s, and to memoir writing in general, in the sense that I don’t think I’ll ever write about myself again, at least not like this. Six good essays over eight years simply isn’t good math. And ironically, it turns out that I’m a pretty private person. It’s a Catch-22: part of the creative process naturally involves sharing one’s work with other people. But I’m shy, so there’s also desire to hide, or remain pseudonymous, which is a right that is still enjoyed by trolls but no longer afforded to artists.

Do you have a response for those who question why someone who harassed a book reviewer should have the opportunity to continue publishing?
I think the essay shocked people in part because we like to think that what we do and say online has no repercussions for us whatsoever. But what if the owner of that restaurant we smeared on Yelp, under multiple user names, lowering its overall rating to, say, 2 out of 5, all because the hostess had a “bitchy” demeanor, showed up at our front door? Nobody wants that. That’s scary. But is it fear we feel when the restaurant owner rings our bell, or an unwelcome sense of responsibility for our online conduct? Maybe it’s a little of both.

What do you hope readers, skeptics or otherwise, take from this collection?
After dealing with some very dedicated internet trolls, who’ve been with me now for nearly five years (happy anniversary), I began to realize that I couldn’t effectively sit down and try to tell a story while simultaneously trying to gauge or mitigate potential backlash to it. This collection contains honest essays about my life, which obviously opens me up to scathing analysis about how I lead my life. But allowing myself to hope that “readers, skeptics or otherwise” take it the right way spins me out of sorts and hurts my productivity. The way I’ve survived since getting offline is by thinking, “My job is just to write,” and now that the collection has been published, I must move on to the next thing.

Sometimes you juxtapose one subject with another, as in “Cricket,” in which you write about the Miss America pageant and a woman who overdoses in a bathroom. What does your writing process look like, and how does it allow these seemingly disparate concepts to come together in your mind?
Disparate concepts are always coming together in my mind because I have mental illness. As a writer, I try to weed out the random thoughts from the relevant ones and string the latter batch together into a narrative that isn’t boring.

You seem to be drawn to unusual or difficult subjects in general, such as the community of environmentally ill people in Snowflake, Arizona. What prompts this curiosity?
I can’t take credit for coming up with the idea for the Snowflake essay—that one belongs to Mae Ryan, an amazingly talented filmmaker who had pitched the story to The Guardian and was originally going to report it with Jon Ronson, but he couldn’t make it, so they called me. It was one of my first real gigs after getting out of the psych hospital, and I found the experience so refreshing, because it allowed me to write about a community of people suffering in ways I could relate to, while also taking a break from being a main character in my own stories. Susie and Deb were fascinating people and generous hosts. I can’t thank Mae enough for finding them and letting me tag along. The whole experience really seeded my current interest in writing exclusively about other people.

Though you’ve published a number of essays, this collection is a genre shift as far as your books go. Do you anticipate continuing in young adult fiction?
No, my career in young adult fiction is over. No YA publisher will work with me out of fear of offending my anonymous online critics/trolls. I still get to write professionally about teenagers, but it’s always for television and film, where I can remain anonymous. I love it.

You address mental health several times throughout this collection, including mention of a psychiatric hospital visit that followed the incident from which the book takes its title. How has your own mental health journey continued since that time?
Perhaps in another five years, when a decade has passed since I published something “inappropriate” online and caused a minor uproar on Twitter, I’ll finally be known for something other than an essay that landed me in a mental hospital. That said, it’s a pretty good story, and the title of my collection, Kathleen Hale Is a Crazy Stalker, is clearly in part a callout to that story. But the title also refers to the theme of predation that unites all six essays and to the gaslighting that women endure in a sexist society that recapitulates female aggression as insanity. In my case, however, the word “crazy” is absolutely true, and I own it completely! I am crazy. The internet drove me crazy.

How are you caring for yourself surrounding this book release, as people critique your publisher’s decision to publish it and you personally?
I stay offline and sit down at my desk in the real world and work on my next thing.

What are you working on now?
In my 20s I was interested in myself. But now that I’m in my 30s, I realize that other people are much more interesting than I am. My next book is a work of nonfiction about an unusual community where something tragic happened. Most people have heard of it. But they don’t know the whole story.

ALSO IN BOOKPAGE: Read our review of Kathleen Hale Is a Crazy Stalker.

Everything Samantha Irby touches turns to laughter, and this Q&A is no exception. The humor writer and essayist talked to BookPage about moving to Kalamazoo, Michigan, working in Hollywood and writing her newest book, Wow, No Thank You.

You are an amazingly candid writer, offering essays on everything from sex to your tough childhood to body issues. What topics are off limits for you? What topics would you like to tackle but haven’t yet?
THIS IS A TRICK QUESTION. I can’t tell you my off-limit topics because then it’ll become a whole thing and your follow-up question will be, “Well why don’t you write about that?” and then I’ll end up talking about a thing I don’t write about and then we will continue in a back-and-forth loop until one of us dies. So I’ma say this: I try to only write what I know about, which is why 99% of my work is about myself, because I don’t know anything and I can’t read!

You say your stepchildren are not allowed to read your books (as part of your hilarious “detachment parenting” theory). Surely you let your wife read your work, though. What is her general reaction?
I don’t let my wife read anything in which she isn’t specifically referenced before I send it to my editor, because I can’t shake off criticism. I don’t read or listen to anything anyone who isn’t editing me has to say about a thing I’m working on because the instant I hear it, it becomes a part of my body. That “this could be tighter” or “this part is confusing” crawls inside my ear and burrows its way into my brain where it will live until I pass away, still fretting about why my sentence structure is bad. I don’t read interviews or reviews or anything about myself ever, because I don’t have that gene that allows you to take critiques in stride and keep it pushing. Anyway, it was written into our vows that she is required to say that she likes every single thing I commit to the page, so I’ll never know what she actually feels, but I believe that she’s a fan.

“Nothing is fun when it feels like your life depends on it. That sounds extremely dramatic, but it’s real.”

It was fascinating to read about your time in Hollywood working in the writers’ room for the show “Shrill.” Do you see yourself working in Hollywood again?
I just wrapped a different Hollywood job! Although, we worked in Chicago this time, and the show shoots in Chicago, so it was just like going home to chill with my friends for a few weeks, not like fancy Hollywood. I was just in the writers’ room for Showtime’s “Work in Progress,” a show I was absolutely obsessed with when it first came out, so when they asked if I would join the room for season two, I leapt at the chance. I don’t know though. I’m not 19 and optimistic, show business fucking sucks, and everyone lies to your face while telling you how much they love you, and there’s absolutely zero transparency, which I never expect under any circumstances, but it’s jarring when it happens, and making the choice to be a 40-year-old beginner in an industry like that??? No thank you! I’m too old to be subjecting myself over and over again to that shit! I’m sure publishing has its detractors, too, but at least I’m already successful at that. So I’ll work in Hollywood when cool opportunities to work with genuine people I like present themselves to me, but I will absolutely never be a rabbit chasing breathlessly after that elusive stick.

What are you most proud of in your career so far?
That I spent 14 years at the same job (working in an animal hospital in the burbs), punching the same clock, and that I was dependable and reliable and really good at it. Creative writing isn’t a career, it’s an unrelenting anxiety dream in which my money and future are tied to the whims of people I’ve never met and a market over which I have absolutely no control. However, many years from now when I’m filling out the application to be a regional manager at Target because no one reads anymore, no one is gonna give a shit that once upon a time I wrote some books. They want to know that I have exceptional customer service skills, which I absolutely do.

ALSO IN BOOKPAGE: Read our starred review of Wow, No Thank You.

You moved from Chicago to Kalamazoo, Michigan (which, until embarrassingly recently, I didn’t know was a real place). What was the hardest part about leaving a major city? What was a welcome surprise about the move?
The best thing about having moved is that there are a precious few people here who ever ask me for anything, and that is the best thing in the fucking world. It didn’t really dawn on me how great getting away from a city full of people with my phone number was until the first time someone hit me up like, “Hey dude, can you do my show for free next Thursday night at 11:59 p.m., I can comp you one well drink,” and I got to respond “SORRY NO I DON’T LIVE IN CHICAGO ANYMORE.” I miss my friends, and 90% of my waking hours feel like I am going to die without being in close proximity to them, but Jesus Christ, EVERYONE HAS A FRIGGIN PODCAST, and they all want you to come to their apartments after work and awkwardly try to hold a microphone while shooing away the dog, and I don’t have to make up an excuse not to do that anymore! “I can’t, I live in another state!” is the perfect way to get out of every in-person interaction I would die rather than suffer through. Technology is catching up to me, though, and people have started to pivot to “Hey, we can just Skype!” or whatever, but I just got a new phone number, so now I can avoid that shit, too. Everyone should move!

You wrote in an online book club chat: “I’m no good in New York. It’s so busy and everyone is mean.” In which cities are you at your best?
The Middle West. Chicago, especially. Detroit is a close second. Also: literally any place with more strip malls than people.

In your acknowledgements, you say you “had a weirdly hard time working on this dumb book.” Why was that?
Wow, you read that far? That’s hilarious! Hmm, well. I don’t know? I didn’t have writer’s block, per se, but I was extremely unmotivated to sit down and write for long stretches of time while working on this collection, and if I had to pin the blame on one thing, it would probably be that this time it was my actual job to be writing a book rather than a fun hobby I get to use as an emotional outlet. Nothing is fun when it feels like your life depends on it. That sounds extremely dramatic, but it’s real.

In your final chapter, you write about how you published your book and allude to the tail-between-your-legs emails asking writers you admire if they would please blurb your book. Who’s written your favorite blurb?
I love all my blurbs equally, especially since they were each so skin-crawlingly humiliating to get, but Jia Tolentino referring to my work as a “snack tray” I think really speaks to the essence of who I am and what I want my writing to be.

“I don’t believe in guilty pleasures. I like what I like, and I don’t care who doesn’t approve.”

You’re pretty active on Twitter, which is simultaneously one of the best and worst places on the internet. Do you encounter a lot of trolls? How do you handle them?
This is so funny because I don’t see myself as active on Twitter? Like, I make a pretty concerted effort to never tweet takes and only occasionally tweet jokes, because that place is a fucking toilet and I hate fighting and I’m also not smart enough to offer an educated opinion about anything that actually matters. I like to retweet things to promote other people while also trying to tweet links to my own shit at a clip that is steady but not nauseatingly so, especially since I decided a few years ago that the only way I could not feel like absolute shit on that website was to use my platform for good. I don’t need to dunk on idiots or react to articles I haven’t read all the way through. I just try to amplify people’s shit while scrolling through to get a laugh. All I want to do is laugh at shit and skim popular articles so that if anyone asks, “Hey, did you read [that thing everyone is talking about] today?” I can convincingly lie and say, “Yes!”

I’m sure I get trolled, but honestly idk about it? I mean, I have so few spicy takes that I can’t imagine what someone would want to climb up my asshole about, but I know there’s always something. Anyway, I have my settings and shit tweaked so that I don’t see anything from anyone I don’t already follow, plus I mute words and phrases I don’t want to see, which is basically the textbook definition of “self-care.” The whole “engage with trolls” thing is just not my fucking bag. The thought of arguing with a faceless stranger online has zero appeal to me? It’s not like people want to have a healthy discussion and exchange of ideas. They want to call you a fat bitch and tell you all the ways you should fucking kill yourself. I can’t dedicate any of the rapidly waning emotional energy I have left to that shit, and besides, I already have the death pills counted out! (jk jk)

I absolutely loved the chapter called “Late 1900s Time Capsule,” in which you offer up a mixtape of songs from the ’90s and divulge what they meant to you. What is your guiltiest pleasure music these days?
I don’t believe in guilty pleasures. I like what I like, and I don’t care who doesn’t approve. I’ve already lived through the years of telegraphing how cool I think I am to people who don’t give a shit, so now I just do whatever I want. That’s not the answer you’re looking for—I know you want me to embarrass myself even though I refuse to feel shame about pop music—so here you go: Every song on Katy Perry’s album “Witness” is a fucking jam, and also I absolutely cannot stop listening to the new Selena Gomez. Has your bloodlust been satisfied???

Author photo © Ted Beranis

Comedian, screenwriter, actor and showrunner Rachel Bloom adds “author” to her list of credentials with I Want to Be Where the Normal People Are, a collection of personal essays and hilarious tidbits from her life and career. We asked Rachel a few questions about theater, mental health and the difference between writing a book and writing for her hit TV show, "Crazy Ex-Girlfriend."

The title of your book, I Want to Be Where the Normal People Are, is interesting since, if you actually were normal (whatever that means), you probably wouldn’t have had your extraordinary career. Do you still want to be where the normal people are?
No, because *spoiler alert* there is no such thing as normal. And if I did consider myself normal, all evidence points to the fact that I would be a shallow and boring person.

You write candidly about your experiences with mental health, specifically obsessive-compulsive disorder. Why was it important for you to share this part of your life? What message do you hope to convey to readers about living with mental illness?
This was the most important thing for me to share because it’s the biggest example of me feeling out of place and completely alone. For many years I didn’t talk about this part of my life with anybody because I was really ashamed, and it weighed on me. So I always knew that, especially in a book about normalcy, this piece of my story was essential. The messages I hope to convey to readers are that you’re not as weird as you think you are and you didn’t do this to yourself.

You not only sprinkle excerpts from your childhood diaries throughout the book but also share screenshots of the diary entries. That’s some serious sharing. What would 13-year-old Rachel think?
She’d hate me.

ALSO IN BOOKPAGE: Read our review of I Want to Be Where the Normal People Are.

You cover a lot of topics in your book—from childhood insecurities to dealing with professional rejection to therapy. Are there any subjects you intentionally chose not to write about? Why?
Yes. Anything that reveals intimate details about people with whom I still care to have a good relationship, and any identifying characteristics of a few of the other people I talk about. I don't wish for anyone to be targeted, doxxed or canceled because of stories in this book. As far as that guy in 7th grade—yes, that is his real name, but it's one of the most common names in the world, so good luck finding him.

There’s a section in the book called “Normal People Choose Safe Careers.” What would your safe career have been?
Teaching—but I know how hard it is to be a teacher, so apologies to any teachers who are like “fuck you."

You say you’ve always been a theater kid. What was your best theater experience in high school?
I was in the musical Honk!, which is a musical about the ugly duckling, and it was the period of time when I fully found my group of friends and started to become way more confident as a person and performer. When Honk! ended, I actually fell into a mini-depression. I think I even said to myself, "The magic time is over."

What has been your favorite theater experience as a fan?
Hamilton. I know that sounds trite, but my Hamilton experience was as follows: I had just won a Golden Globe, and afterward I immediately flew to New York to do press. So I'd had no sleep and was incredibly emotional. I bought myself a single ticket to Hamilton for $800, and as the audience stood up at the end of the show, I started sobbing. I called my husband to say, “I cannot believe I’m seeing an audience react to a musical about history the way that people react to Star Wars. I never thought I’d see this. This is unbelievable.” I could not stop crying.

"There were long stretches of me putting stuff on paper and not knowing whether or not it was garbage."

You proclaim in the book that your celebrity cause is making amusement parks smarter. Now this is a cause worth taking on. I think your idea of a weed edible station would be extremely popular, and the “Get Born” Rapids that reproduce the birth canal experience is . . . interesting. How are you going to take this idea to market?
Well, I think it goes without saying that I need a billion dollars. So . . . do you want to give me a billion dollars?

You write fairly late in the book that “writing another book right now sounds like getting a pap smear in a World War I trench.” Was writing this book harder or easier than writing for your (amazing) TV show “Crazy Ex-Girlfriend”? What’s the biggest difference between the two?
They were equally hard in different ways. The hard part about the book was that I had no one to bounce things off of in the process of writing a draft. Once I turned it in, my editor was my unofficial writing partner on this book, but it’s not like I could read a chapter aloud to her to see what she thought. There were long stretches of me putting stuff on paper and not knowing whether or not it was garbage. And also, to be scientific: A book is a lot of words and a TV episode is less words.

You share several stories about being bullied in school in this book, including a particularly brutal incident in which a couple of popular girls convinced a boy to pretend he liked you. Have you gone back to any class reunions, and if so, did you bring your Emmy with you?
I actually missed my 10-year reunion because it was in the thick of season one of "Crazy Ex-Girlfriend," and I was just too tired, which is such a flex I guess. Not to be a downer, but high school was a lot better than middle school. So if I went back to a reunion, it wouldn’t be as triumphant as you’d like because, unfortunately for the sake of my own narrative, people got way nicer.

ALSO IN BOOKPAGE: Love audiobooks? Check out I Want to Be Where the Normal People Are and other nonfiction audiobook picks.

Author headshot © Robyn Von Swank

In her third book, Please Don’t Sit on My Bed in Your Outside Clothes, Phoebe Robinson is as hilarious, smart and honest as ever. She’s taking action, too, with a new publishing imprint called Tiny Reparations Books.

Congratulations on your latest accomplishments—jewels in your queenly crown!—including your third book in five years. Did you always want to be an author? What about it has been the most surprising, exciting or bizarre?
Thank you so much! I definitely didn’t always want to be an author, which is surprising considering how much I love books and how I used to write stories as a kid. I kind of dabbled in artistic things. Like, I used to draw a lot as a kid and was obsessed with movies and TV shows, so my dream was to write dramatic screenplays that would go on to win Oscars. Very different track that I’m on now—haha—but I’m so happy. I’m right where I’m supposed to be. 

What has been most surprising is seeing how much my writing improves book to book. It’s a great way to see what I’ve learned consciously and subconsciously being revealed through my work. Most exciting would have to be when I made the New York Times bestsellers list for You Can’t Touch My Hair. That was my first book, and a lot of effort went into spreading the word about YCTMH, so I’m glad we achieved that goal. And for most bizarre, it would have to be Oprah calling to congratulate me on YCTMH and telling me she enjoyed reading it. Would have never expected that to happen.

For this book, what essay came to you first? What was on your mind that made you feel like it was time to get to work on this collection? 
Definitely “Quaranbae.” It was early in quarantine, but I had already started noticing some things both bae and I did that made me laugh or go, “That’s interesting.” Just us being around each other all the time and the ways in which we got in each other’s ways. I just sort of chuckled and wrote a few things down in my Notes app, and then a title popped into my head: Diary of a Bitch in Quarantine. And I thought, “Huh. Maybe this could be a fun essay collection.” I texted my literary agent, Robert, and he said that was cool. So I just started working on a proposal. Then that boneheaded “I Take Responsibility” video came out, and so in addition to writing about personal things, I wanted to write about performative allyship and all that jazz. I truly wasn’t planning on writing a book during quarantine. I think I just needed a creative outlet because so much was unknown. And now we’re here!

“It’s my responsibility to shine a light on people and help make their paths a bit easier than mine has been.”

You do stand-up comedy, podcasts, hosting and acting in addition to writing books. Does one aspect of your multihyphenate career feel most dominant to you, or do you view all of your various jobs as elements of a larger creative whole?
Definitely the latter. I’m just curious about and interested in reflecting many sides of my creativity. And each one nourishes a part of me. I love doing stand-up and getting that immediate feedback from the audience of, “Yes, that is hilarious” or, “Naw, not there yet, but you’re on the right path, so figure it out.” Writing allows me to lean into the side of me that enjoys being alone, where I can be funny or serious. And then all the film and TV stuff is so collaborative, and I enjoy that process of trying to build something that would be impossible for one person to pull off. 

The latest additions to the Phoebeverse are a production company and a book imprint, both called Tiny Reparations. What does that name mean to you?
I used to always joke that I’m never going to get the reparations, like the cash, but I can get those small moments of payback from the universe, such as when I met Bono, the lead singer of U2, which is my all-time favorite band. With the production company and imprint, the meaning behind the name expanded from a joke to a reality. It’s been the running theme throughout my career. I’ve always used whatever platform to help uplift other voices and share the wealth. I don’t want to be the token. I don’t want to be the “exceptional one” in a sea of white people in entertainment and publishing. First of all, that is a fallacy. There’s not just one special person of color who is good at this stuff. A whole host of them are, and many of them are ignored, and I don’t want to be the person doing the ignoring. So it’s my responsibility to shine a light on people and help make their paths a bit easier than mine has been. It’s been a wonderful privilege, and I’m always looking for ways to do more. Stay tuned!

“There’s a lot of work to be done to make this industry more inclusive, and I believe we can get there.”

What do you most want to accomplish with Tiny Reparations Books, in terms of its potential to create change in the publishing business?
Without a shadow of a doubt, my goal is to have one of my authors’ books land in the top three on the New York Times bestseller list. Coincidentally, every writer on the slate is a debut author, which is so freaking dope, so it would be nice to be on that journey with them and celebrate them bursting onto the scene in such a cool way. But more importantly, I just want every author to feel supported and like they absolutely got to write the book they wanted to. Writing can be such a torturous and stressful process, and worrying about the book doing well and building a presence on social media can make someone be in their head. I want them to find joy in the process because you never forget the whole journey your first book goes through.

I also really want TRB to help shake things up. To be one of many imprints that are changing the landscape of publishing, both with the kinds of books being published as well as the kinds of people behind the scenes who are gatekeepers, all the way down to interns. There’s a lot of work to be done to make this industry more inclusive, and I believe we can get there. Everyone just has to show up and contribute. It’s not going to magically change overnight because Roxane Gay and I have imprints. The onus shouldn’t be on the two of us to fix everything, ya know?

Will you share a bit with us about the books you’ll be publishing first? 
Yes! I can give you a sneak peek of a couple of them. First up is What the Fireflies Knew. When I read the title to myself, I just imagine Oprah saying it while holding the book and standing in her kale garden. It’s written by Kai Harris, and it’s a coming-of-age story about a preteen girl named KB and her sister who stay with their grandfather for the summer after their father passes away. It’s really moving and powerful and perfectly captures the innocence of youth, sibling relationships and trying to find your place in a world that you don’t quite understand. I love it so much, and I truly believe other people will as well. Kai is the truth!

Then there is Portrait of a Thief by Grace D. Li, who legit wrote this book while in medical school. When I learned that, I was like, “Lol, wut?! I will never complain about writing a book again.” It’s a great heist novel about a group of 20-something Chinese peeps who get hired to steal Chinese artifacts from Western museums. I mean, talk about a hook. Beyond the plot-driven pace, it really sucks you in because there’s so much in there about family and identity and the assumptions we make about what we do and don’t mean to the important people in our lives. I gobbled this up in two days. Grace has a very bright future as an author, and I’m happy she’s on #TeamTinyRepBooks.

You write so movingly about what life was like for you during the height of the COVID-19 pandemic as an individual, as a partner to your significant other (affectionately known as your British Baekoff) and as a Black woman. You write, “If I can make you laugh and forget your problems for a moment then I did something.” Who or what did that for you during 2020?
Great quesh! Tbh, 2020 is kind of a blur. One day just sort of bled into the next, but I will say that I rewatched “Sex and the City,” and that was great. It is such a formative show for me, and Samantha Jones is so freaking funny. It was great to revisit the show and forget the state of the naysh for a bit.

“In my opinion, it’s my best book yet.”

It’s fascinating to read about how your parents have influenced you, whether you find yourself aligning with them (like in your desire to help and support people through your work) or doing things they won’t (like traveling). What was it like for you, plumbing your relationship with them? What was their reaction to the book?
I always enjoy writing about them because they are so different from me and funny in their own unique ways. They haven’t read the book yet. I didn’t want to give them an Advanced Reader Copy just because I didn’t want them to read the book when it wasn’t perfect. But they adorably preordered the book, so I’m sure I will hear soon how they feel about it. I think they will dig it. In my opinion, it’s my best book yet.

You got your passport in 2015 and have been broadening your horizons ever since, as per your “Black Girl, Will Travel” essay. What do you think is a good destination for a travel newbie? Where are you going to travel next?
I’m probably biased because my boyfriend is from the U.K., but I always tell people that London is great to visit. It’s similar to New York in a lot of ways, but also wildly different. There’s so much to do and lots of good food options, and because you can do a daytrip to Bath or take a train to Paris, it’s a place you can return to often and still discover new things. 

I miss travel so much! I really want to go to Spain. That’s been on my list for several years, and I just couldn’t make it work. So I’m going to get my shit together and just do it once it’s truly safe to be traveling internationally. 

ALSO IN BOOKPAGE: Read our review of Please Don’t Sit on My Bed in Your Outside Clothes.

In the hilarious titular essay, you note with indignation that, despite everyone proclaiming undying love for Mr. Rogers, most of them have missed the memo about the value of having separate outside and inside clothes. This prompted you to share “Phoebe-isms,” about which you feel Very Strongly. Are there any that didn’t make it into the book that you feel compelled to share now?
Surprisingly, I got everything off my chest. But I guess, I will say, “Wash your fucking legs!” When people on social media were talking about how they don’t wash their legs because the soap just drips down anyway in the shower, I almost vomited. That is nasty as hell. The shower isn’t a place to be taking shortcuts or phoning it in.

Once they’ve finished reading your book, where can your fans find you next—from on a stage, to on their bookshelves, to in their earbuds, to on their screens?
My HBO Max stand-up special will be premiering later this year, so be on the lookout for that and stream it! I wanna make a good impresh with the HBO Max folks, so I can do another special with them!

Author photo credit: Yavez Anthonio